View Full Version : Who'd a thunk it?
Broward County SAT scores are lower than the State and National averages again. This is such a disgrace. Even the national average is not very high making Broward kids as smart as a bag of rocks.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-ssat06oct06,0,6443477.story?coll=sfla-news-broward
SAT scores in Broward County still below state and national averages
By Douane D. James
EDUCATION Writer
Posted October 6 2005
Broward County high school students continue to perform worse than the state and national averages on the SAT, according to results the district released Wednesday.
Better news for the county was that the trend of more Broward students taking the college entrance exam also continued. About 9,190 seniors in the class of 2005 took the SAT, 11 percent more than the previous year.
On average, Broward students in the class of 2005 scored 479 on the verbal section, compared with 498 in Florida. The national average was 508.
The average math score here was 488, compared with 498 for the state. The national average was 520.
The district's average combined SAT score of 967 was the same as it was for 2002-03 and 2003-04, when it also lagged behind the state and nation.
While the scores are flat, the district likes that more students are considering college and taking the exam, said Kimberley Kraft, district director of student testing and performance.
Students at 14 of Broward's 33 high schools earned higher scores on both SAT sections compared with prior years.
With a combined score of 1103, The College Academy at Broward Community College had the highest average in the district. Stoneman Douglas High in Parkland and McFatter Technical High in Davie and Cooper City High were among the other standouts.
In a breakout of the performance of racial and ethnic groups in 2004-05, "achievement gaps" remain.
The average combined score for white students in Broward County was 191 points higher on the SAT than the average for black students. The gap between whites and Hispanics was 85 points.
"That's an area in need of ongoing attention," Kraft said.
Scores for the ACT, the nation's second-most-popular college entrance exam, also were released.
Like the SAT, Broward students' average ACT score of 19.7 was lower than the state and national average.
The ACT is scored on a scale of 1 to 36, with 36 being the highest. The ACT is more popular in the Midwest, although almost all colleges accept either exam.
The minimum a student must score to be eligible for the Florida's Bright Futures college scholarship is 970 on the SAT and 20 on the ACT.
I just don't understand it. Why can't we as a country, pick the state with the highest scores and the best education system and duplicate it? Exact curriculum, etc. Make it a law and give the money for it. End of story...
Or am I in LaLa land?
I just don't understand it. Why can't we as a country, pick the state with the highest scores and the best education system and duplicate it? Exact curriculum, etc. Make it a law and give the money for it. End of story...
Or am I in LaLa land?
I'll give you a clue, it all starts at home.
Oh and it couldn't have anything to do with teacher salaries and expenditure per child.
http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030521.html#t5
We are 30th in teacher salaries and 43rd in expenditures per child.
New Jersey is third on the list and here are some of their rankings.
http://www.njea.org/WeAreNJEA/goodnews.asp
I think that Money Talks.
Oh and it couldn't have anything to do with teacher salaries and expenditure per child.
http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030521.html#t5
We are 30th in teacher salaries and 43rd in expenditures per child.
Interesting, but I would like to see the correlation between expenditures and SAT scores before I would completely believe that theory. Money helps for sure, but it doesn't make Johnny do the work.
Interesting, but I would like to see the correlation between expenditures and SAT scores before I would completely believe that theory. Money helps for sure, but it doesn't make Johnny do the work.
I will look for an SAT ranking by state. I would assume if it is running in about the same order as expenditures, that that might be a BIG clue. :)
New Jersey is third on the list and here are some of their rankings.
http://www.njea.org/WeAreNJEA/goodnews.asp
I think that Money Talks.
The problem is you would actually have to LIVE in NJ to get their good education. It may not be worth it!;)
The problem is you would actually have to LIVE in NJ to get their good education. It may not be worth it!;)
You have a point there. :)
rogelah
10-06-2005, 01:11 PM
Educational achievement begins at home; end of story. My parents stressed the importance of education and I, in turn, stressed it to my three daughters.
I have three grandchildren, all of whom live in Broward County (two in Weston), attend public schools and are doing just fine.
IMO, the emphasis on tests has dumbed down the value of education. Instead of finding solutions to the causes of poor performance on tests the prescription is to solve the symptom not the cause.
Best Teach
10-06-2005, 01:25 PM
IMO, the emphasis on tests has dumbed down the value of education.
So true...
So true...
Oh no! We are going to go on a 10 page tangent about the testing again. (which I hate, by the way)
Rogelah -
And I do believe that education starts at home. But we can't put aside the fact that if we don't invest the money, the system suffers. Do you mean to tell me that in the states that are doing better, their family values are better? How many times have I heard about people moving down here and finding that their kids in New York are doing so much better. I have friends that have moved here from Europe and their kids sit bored in the classroom. We definitely have a problem with our system and it isn't just home life.
Best Teach
10-06-2005, 03:12 PM
Oh no! We are going to go on a 10 page tangent about the testing again. (which I hate, by the way)
I posted TWO WORDS. How does that translate into 10 pages?
rogelah
10-06-2005, 03:13 PM
Oh no! We are going to go on a 10 page tangent about the testing again. (which I hate, by the way)
Rogelah -
And I do believe that education starts at home. But we can't put aside the fact that if we don't invest the money, the system suffers. Do you mean to tell me that in the states that are doing better, their family values are better? How many times have I heard about people moving down here and finding that their kids in New York are doing so much better. I have friends that have moved here from Europe and their kids sit bored in the classroom. We definitely have a problem with our system and it isn't just home life.It is not about testing. It is about the value you place on education and how you convey that to your children. I got an excellent education from the Dade County School System and my kids got theirs from a combination of Dade and Broward.
I'm certain my parents heard similar stories of problems when I was in school. I know I heard the same litany of problems when my kids were in school. In Dade I was involved in more than just going to PTA meetings.
As for investing money, are you willing to pay more taxes to the Broward School District? Where do you think they get the money to invest in education? Do you think it all comes from the State? Did you know that a portion of the school taxes you pay goes to Tallahassee to be redistributed based on something called student equivalents? So, if the Statre spends more money it will come out of your pocket.
Do you think the money the Federal Government spends on education comes from money trees surrounding the Reflecting Pool in Washington DC?
The purse strings are held by politicians who spend hugh amounts of money on things like weapons systems and paying the interest on the National Debt. Education gets a lot of lip service but very little cash.
I posted TWO WORDS. How does that translate into 10 pages?
I wasn't attacking you. I was making a joke. I remember on NotCrap, there were pages and pages on it when the FCat and testing came up. I'm sorry if you took my comments personally. They were not meant that way.
Oh and it couldn't have anything to do with teacher salaries and expenditure per child.
http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030521.html#t5
We are 30th in teacher salaries and 43rd in expenditures per child.
New Jersey is third on the list and here are some of their rankings.
http://www.njea.org/WeAreNJEA/goodnews.asp
I think that Money Talks.
Well you forced me into a tough situation of actually looking something up, but I think your theory of spending = scores is completely wrong. I didn't plot spending v SAT because the SAT scores by state are a pdf file, but I think there may actually be an inverse relationship. The highest SAT score state is Iowa which is 33rd in spending. Second highest SAT state is South Dakota which is 38th in spending. Look how well many poor states do in SAT, also note geographical location. The top ten are all Midwestern states (red states)Whoo
Average 2004 SAT scores:
http://www.sde.state.ok.us/test/SAT/SATstateSCORES.pdf
It is not about testing. It is about the value you place on education and how you convey that to your children. I got an excellent education from the Dade County School System and my kids got theirs from a combination of Dade and Broward.
I'm certain my parents heard similar stories of problems when I was in school. I know I heard the same litany of problems when my kids were in school. In Dade I was involved in more than just going to PTA meetings.
As for investing money, are you willing to pay more taxes to the Broward School District? Where do you think they get the money to invest in education? Do you think it all comes from the State? Did you know that a portion of the school taxes you pay goes to Tallahassee to be redistributed based on something called student equivalents? So, if the Statre spends more money it will come out of your pocket.
Do you think the money the Federal Government spends on education comes from money trees surrounding the Reflecting Pool in Washington DC?
The purse strings are held by politicians who spend hugh amounts of money on things like weapons systems and paying the interest on the National Debt. Education gets a lot of lip service but very little cash.
My point was only that it appears that in states where more is spent directly on education, the levels seem to be higher. I only know the education system here, so I cannot personally compare. But I do hear people talking about putting their kids in our system here and it not being as good. Their kids are bored or already know the material, etc... And some move from here to another state and they are behind.
What do you think the difference between the #1 state and the #50 state in their ratings in education? Is it the family structure? Is it the money? Is it the curriculum? Is it the teacher's salaries? There is a definite inequality across the United States and I would like to understand. Shouldn't there be a standard curriculum that works. Why should children in New York get a better education than children in Florida. My kids are doing okay in our system. But I wonder how much better they would do in a better state. (for curiousity purposes only) I don't plan on moving anytime soon. This is our home.
By the way, I 'm not really talking about testing. But if kids coming from Florida are testing lower on the Sat's than kids coming from New Jersey. I want to know why? And I would think that looking at the curriculum and the expenditures, etc.. would be a good way to go.
Well you forced me into a tough situation of actually looking something up, but I think your theory of spending = scores is completely wrong. I didn't plot spending v SAT because the SAT scores by state are a pdf file, but I think there may actually be an inverse relationship. The highest SAT score state is Iowa which is 33rd in spending. Second highest SAT state is South Dakota which is 38th in spending. Look how well many poor states do in SAT, also note geographical location. The top ten are all Midwestern states (red states)Whoo
Average 2004 SAT scores:
http://www.sde.state.ok.us/test/SAT/SATstateSCORES.pdf
Thanks for looking that up. I was searching for that earlier. So - why is Florida so low on that list?
My point was only that it appears that in states where more is spent directly on education, the levels seem to be higher. I only know the education system here, so I cannot personally compare. But I do hear people talking about putting their kids in our system here and it not being as good. Their kids are bored or already know the material, etc... And some move from here to another state and they are behind.
What do you think the difference between the #1 state and the #50 state in their ratings in education? Is it the family structure? Is it the money? Is it the curriculum? Is it the teacher's salaries? There is a definite inequality across the United States and I would like to understand. Shouldn't there be a standard curriculum that works. Why should children in New York get a better education than children in Florida. My kids are doing okay in our system. But I wonder how much better they would do in a better state. (for curiousity purposes only) I don't plan on moving anytime soon. This is our home.
By the way, I 'm not really talking about testing. But if kids coming from Florida are testing lower on the Sat's than kids coming from New Jersey. I want to know why? And I would think that looking at the curriculum and the expenditures, etc.. would be a good way to go.
I was joking about the top states being red states, but the answer to your question is in the values held by the parents. Go out to Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri and you will find hard working people who know the value of education. They work for what they get and expect no more than they work for. Go to California and you will find people who want things given to them. It all starts at home.
Thanks for looking that up. I was searching for that earlier. So - why is Florida so low on that list?
Because FL is full of special people. I would go out on a limb and say SAT scores on the west coast of FL are higher than on the east because people on the west coast largely come from Chicago and east coast from NY. I have no statistics to back that up and my contract with Tubbly only requires one academic exercise per day.
I was joking about the top states being red states, but the answer to your question is in the values held by the parents. Go out to Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri and you will find hard working people who know the value of education. They work for what they get and expect no more than they work for. Go to California and you will find people who want things given to them. It all starts at home.
Maybe some of our kids have more sensory overload. I don't think that every kids in Kansas has a cell phone with a camera built in. :rolleyes:
Because FL is full of special people. I would go out on a limb and say SAT scores on the west coast of FL are higher than on the east because people on the west coast largely come from Chicago and east coast from NY. I have no statistics to back that up and my contract with Tubbly only requires one academia exercise per day.
We have so many special "gifted" people here that Gator Run (probably all of Broward county) is changing the qualifications for the "gifted class". It seems that all of a sudden every child has been tested as gifted.
Maybe some of our kids have more sensory overload. I don't think that every kids in Kansas has a cell phone with a camera built in. :rolleyes:
Sensory overload, distraction, call it what you want, but at my house in the Midwest you better be hitting the books or something would be hitting your ass!:eek:
billuscher
10-06-2005, 03:55 PM
Toad are you getting silly again? Money doesn't always help, but it never hurts. As a substitute teacher, I of course am now an expert on education. And I say to all of you, you can't teach a class with 30 or more pupils in it.
In fact 20 should be the most in any class, all it takes is money.
Toad are you getting silly again? Money doesn't always help, but it never hurts. As a substitute teacher, I of course am now an expert on education. And I say to all of you, you can't teach a class with 30 or more pupils in it.
In fact 20 should be the most in any class, all it takes is money.
I agree that there should be good facilities and reasonable sized classes. But how do you explain the fact that the states with the highest SAT scores have some of the lowest expenditures per student? As JTZ pointed out NJ has a very high spending rate but a relatively low SAT score to show for it.
Don't misunderstand my question. I don't want to short students, I just don't think money alone is the difference.
Here's an interesting take on high school exam requirements.
http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-24184,00.html
High school graduation exam requirement linked to lower SAT scores (8/30/2004)
Gregory Marchant
A new study from Ball State University's Teachers College says that requiring a high school graduation exam could result in lower SAT scores.
The study, conducted by Greg Marchant and Sharon Paulson, professors of educational psychology, examined more than a million test takers and every state's average SAT score. Their findings were presented at the biennial meeting of the Society for Research on Adolescence.
The results showed that the average score in states with high school graduation exam requirements was 34 points lower on the combined verbal and quantitative components of the SAT than average scores of states without exit exams.
"The results are surprising, considering the general notion of increased accountability leads to increased achievement," Marchant said. "For college-bound students, attending school in a state requiring an exit exam may put them at a disadvantage."
Currently 20 states have mandatory exams: Alabama, Alaska, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia.
Five more states will be phasing them in during the next five years: Arizona, California, Idaho, Utah and Washington.
A possible explanation for the findings can be found in the nature of high school exit exams, the SAT and differences in instructional practice. Whereas most exit exams are achievement tests over specific standards or content knowledge, the SAT is a verbal and quantitative test of reasoning that predicts college success, not an achievement test of any specific curriculum.
"Previous research suggests pressure to 'teach to the test' leads teachers to focus on specific content rather than innovative practices designed to stimulate critical-thinking skills," Marchant said.
High school exit exams have come under scrutiny from the Washington, D.C.-based Center on Education Policy as well. In August, the center reported that most exit exams were not helpful in predicting college success.
"Our study takes it a step further; not only are the tests not helpful for determining success, but they might actually be detrimental," Marchant said. "When standards that are designed to guide instruction become the focus of high-stakes testing, content and practice can be narrowed in ways that are counterproductive to the overall success of students."
The researchers included demographic characteristics in all of their analyses. Some interesting statistics include:
White students scored 13 points higher on SATs if they were not required to take an exit exam.
Black students scored an average of eight points lower in states requiring exit exams.
Black students in the top 10 percent of their class and from families with higher incomes averaged 42 points lower in states with a required exit exam.
Non Member
10-06-2005, 07:22 PM
We have so many special "gifted" people here that Gator Run (probably all of Broward county) is changing the qualifications for the "gifted class". It seems that all of a sudden every child has been tested as gifted.
All children should be taught from the 'gifted' curriculum. Teachers assign more homework and expect more from the kids.
All children should be taught from the 'gifted' curriculum. Teachers assign more homework and expect more from the kids.
Two of my children have been in the "high achievers" when they've had it and I've been happy with that. What I don't understand is that the level of work seems to vary so much from classroom to classroom. I don't get it. As far as gifted, there should be some kids that are pulled out and ahead if they are truly brilliant. But my oldest was not really considered a "high achiever" by their standards, but he was put into their program in 2nd grade because of some placement problems in 1st grade. I won't go into it, but my "lazy" take the easy way out child, (this is said lovingly) was put in a class and he was forced to take on extra work. It was the best thing for him and he as excelled since then. So - I agree with you, we should push and expect more from our children. Every class should have a "high achiever" curriculum, even if the kids work at different levels. But I believe that there are some "extra brilliant - high IQ children" that need a separate program. The gifted program at Gator Run is probably more of a high achiever class at this point with the amount of kids that are in it.
....or is there some small percentage of students that take up more than their share of teacher time and should be removed from "regular" class?
happydad
10-06-2005, 10:48 PM
All children should be taught from the 'gifted' curriculum. Teachers assign more homework and expect more from the kids.
I think you're suggesting that all kids should be taught at the same level, regardless of achievements, results of IQ tests and other quantitative and qualitative measurements.
I disagree. Not to boast, but my daughter has been in the gifted program (now 6th garde) for 5 years, and this year she's in the GEM program for math.
And, she's still bored and getting straight A's (one B+) with little effort.
I agree that the standard curriculum should be tougher all around, but some kids need to be offered more advanced curriculum that really challenges them.
Best Teach
10-06-2005, 10:50 PM
....or is there some small percentage of students that take up more than their share of teacher time and should be removed from "regular" class?
Absolutely. They are called "troublemakers." They suck the life out of the teacher and a class. So much time is wasted getting those little bastards to be respectful and pay attention. Blah It is incredibly disruptive.
Best Teach
10-06-2005, 10:52 PM
I wasn't attacking you. I was making a joke. I remember on NotCrap, there were pages and pages on it when the FCat and testing came up. I'm sorry if you took my comments personally. They were not meant that way.
You know, I am the one that should apologize. I am sorry, I didn't mean to post something that seemed as if I was jumping down your throat...I am a little hormonal lately. ;)
dianepmny
10-07-2005, 12:00 AM
Are you having a baby?!
You know, I am the one that should apologize. I am sorry, I didn't mean to post something that seemed as if I was jumping down your throat...I am a little hormonal lately. ;)
All men can understand this problem as we are usually the ones on the receiving end. Blah
Absolutely. They are called "troublemakers." They suck the life out of the teacher and a class. So much time is wasted getting those little bastards to be respectful and pay attention. Blah It is incredibly disruptive.
This is the gripe I have with public schools. Their hands are tied to properly deal with the trouble makers who are not there to learn. The few end up disrupting the learning environment for the majority.
You know, I am the one that should apologize. I am sorry, I didn't mean to post something that seemed as if I was jumping down your throat...I am a little hormonal lately. ;)
Oh - that's right. You get a 110% pass. How are you feeling. I miss being pregnant.
Absolutely. They are called "troublemakers." They suck the life out of the teacher and a class. So much time is wasted getting those little bastards to be respectful and pay attention. Blah It is incredibly disruptive.
I volunteer a lot and I see this so much in the classes.
I think you're suggesting that all kids should be taught at the same level, regardless of achievements, results of IQ tests and other quantitative and qualitative measurements.
I disagree. Not to boast, but my daughter has been in the gifted program (now 6th garde) for 5 years, and this year she's in the GEM program for math.
And, she's still bored and getting straight A's (one B+) with little effort.
I agree that the standard curriculum should be tougher all around, but some kids need to be offered more advanced curriculum that really challenges them.
Happydad - I agree there should be a gifted program. But if there are too many supposed "gifted" kids, then it is time to raise the bar. And apparently that is the case if your daughter is still bored. Do they have a gifted school here? I know that there was a private gifted school when I lived in Sarasota as a child.
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