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Tubby
10-13-2005, 09:48 PM
Feds consider end to tax deductions for mortgages over $250,000 to $350,000

By Harriet Johnson Brackey, Business Writer

If a plan to slash the tax deduction for interest on mortgage loans became law, it would reach deep into the pockets of many South Florida homeowners.

"We look at the mortgage interest deduction as being the best benefit of home ownership," said Ann DeFries, president of the Realtor Association of Fort Lauderdale.

Today, homeowners can deduct interest on mortgages of up to $1 million.

But at a tax reform meeting Tuesday in Washington, D.C., panel members discussed limiting the break to loans in the $250,000 to $300,000 range, which is less than the median home sales price in much of South Florida.

"When you reduce that [deduction] cap, say from $1 million to $300,000, it becomes unfair to a high cost area such as ours," DeFries said.

Realtors vowed to fight the proposal if the panel adopts the recommendation.

"I think it would have a serious impact on the South Florida real estate market because we have a large number of vacation homes and second homes. That's one of the announced targets," said John Mike of Prudential Florida WCI Realty in West Palm Beach and vice chairman of the Realtors Association of the Palm Beaches.

Former Florida Sen. Connie Mack, who heads President Bush's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform, said the group didn't select a specific dollar amount for its target, but he said in an interview Wednesday, "The notion is probably somewhere between $250,000 to $350,000."

Mack noted the change is a long way from becoming law. The panel is working on a system that would allow the amount to vary by county, to reflect local home prices, he said.

A prime reason for considering the change, Mack said, is that by offering a large mortgage interest deduction, the tax law today favors investments in real estate compared with other assets.

That in turn has helped to heat up the real estate market. "With the present code I think it is fair to say it also encourages people to build larger and more expensive homes," he said.

"The way we would structure this is to encourage home ownership," he said. However, "If a person is going to build a $1 million or $2 million or $3 million home, they are not going to get the same tax treatment as they got in the past."

Mack also cited fairness as an issue, saying that high-income taxpayers get most of the benefit from this deduction. A Treasury Department analysis of recent returns shows that 22 percent of the benefit of the mortgage interest deduction goes to 2.2 percent of all tax filers who have incomes of $200,000 or more.

But locally, home prices are so high that any cut in the mortgage interest deduction would hurt plenty of future buyers. The panel has not decided how or when the new limit could be implemented and what would happen to existing mortgage holders above the limit.

Only 39 percent or 501 of the single family homes sold in Palm Beach County in September out of a total of 1,282 were priced at less than $350,000, according to statistics from the Multiple Listing Service.

In Broward County, the under-$350,000 category accounted for 46 percent of all sales in September.

Nationally, the mortgage interest deduction is very widely used. For the average taxpayer, it is the largest itemized deduction that they take.

More than 37 million taxpayers claimed a mortgage interest deduction on their returns in 2002, according to CCH Inc., a tax information and software firm. This is the most recent year for which tax return statistics are available.

For a taxpayer in the $30,000 to $50,000 income range, CCH says the average mortgage interest deduction was $6,850. That's larger than the $4,994 average for medical expenses, $3,187 for taxes and $2,007 for contributions to charity in that income category.

The tax panel has been charged with finding reforms that are revenue neutral, meaning they won't reduce the amount of money collected by the Treasury in taxes.

That's been made more difficult by the panel's last major decision, which was to recommend getting rid of the Aternative Minimum Tax, or AMT, a part of the tax code designed to force wealthy taxpayers to pay at least some federal income tax. The AMT is widely despised on Capitol Hill by the National Taxpayer Advocate and consumer groups. It's expected to hit nearly 20 million taxpayers this year, up from 3.6 million last year.

"When we recommended in July the full repeal of the Alternative Minimum Tax every body cheered and jumped up and down. I don't think they every realized they have got to pay for it now," said Liz Ann Sonders, a panel member and the chief investment strategist for Charles Schwab. "You can't cut $1.2 trillion out of the government's revenue over the next ten years without finding offsets."

The mortgage interest deduction is only one of those offsets under discussion.

Another major tax reform proposal, in terms of revenue for the government, would be to tax health insurance as an employee benefit. Over a certain limit, possibly $11,000, Mack said the panel is looking at making the value of health insurance coverage to the employee taxable as ordinary income.

If your employer provided you with a policy valued at $15,000 a year, then you would have an extra $4,000 in income on which taxes would be assessed.

Sonders said some employees, in that scenario, might prefer a less expensive insurance policy and ask their employers to pay them the extra $4,000 as cash compensation.

The amount of employer-provided health insurance that was excluded from taxes this year is estimated by the Treasury at $125.7 billion. Mortgage interest deductions in 2002 were valued at $336.6 billion.

The tax reform panel meets again next Tuesday. Its report on suggested reforms is due Nov. 1.

d-o-b
10-13-2005, 10:17 PM
sucks...... :mad:

Toad
10-13-2005, 10:32 PM
Couldn't care less.

Tubby
10-14-2005, 07:08 AM
Couldn't care less.

Its going to effect many people who care, I hope I never have a mortgage over 300k, but the price of homes keep going up, and many paychecks remain the same.

You have saved over the years example driving a Pinto, and many others have wasted money with a $400 meal for two. Whoo

Toad
10-14-2005, 07:45 AM
Its going to effect many people who care, I hope I never have a mortgage over 300k, but the price of homes keep going up, and many paychecks remain the same.

You have saved over the years example driving a Pinto, and many others have wasted money with a $400 meal for two. Whoo

The poor do not own houses, they rent. The more wealthy you are the more likely you own a big house and if you were smart you leveraged that house. Only a small number of stupid people like me pay for things with no debt because it really is not the best move financially. Ending the mortgage deduction only hurts people with modest means to the very wealthy. I would guess the other side of the political isle would approve of this tax change.

happydad
10-14-2005, 08:11 AM
First of all, don't you think saying "couldn't are less" reflects a little insensitivity towards those that it would create a problem for? Isn't empathy part of your make-up? Does you apply that philosophy as a general rule of thumb?

Second, there are many people, poor and otherwise, that this would impact. Now, do I think it's wrong? I'm not sure, but I bet it ends up to be around $500,000.00.

What I see it as, though, is just a tricky raise of raising revenue without saying those horrid words "raise taxes". The net effect though is that it is raising taxes.

Toad
10-14-2005, 09:48 AM
First of all, don't you think saying "couldn't are less" reflects a little insensitivity towards those that it would create a problem for? Isn't empathy part of your make-up? Does you apply that philosophy as a general rule of thumb?

Second, there are many people, poor and otherwise, that this would impact. Now, do I think it's wrong? I'm not sure, but I bet it ends up to be around $500,000.00.

What I see it as, though, is just a tricky raise of raising revenue without saying those horrid words "raise taxes". The net effect though is that it is raising taxes.

You're killing me over here! You talk about Bush giving tax cuts to the rich and raising the deficit, but when increasing taxes by way of taking away a deduction to the middle class and wealthy you are unhappy? Is there any action of any kind this administration could take that you would like?

The reason you and others here might not like this tax increase is because it comes right out of the pockets of most people we know. Yes we are the wealthy that would pay more tax. No I couldn't care less if we pay more tax. By the way, I have yet to see any of the tax deductions you say were given to the rich. All I see is a greater tax burden due to the alt. min. tax. I'm willing to pay my share of taxes and let those people who can't afford to own property alone.

jzt
10-14-2005, 11:19 AM
You're killing me over here! You talk about Bush giving talk cuts to the rich and raising the deficit, but when increasing taxes by way of taking away a deduction to the middle class and wealthy you are unhappy? Is there any action of any kind this administration could take that you would like?

The reason you and others here might not like this tax increase is because it comes right out of the pockets of most people we know. Yes we are the wealthy that would pay more tax. No I couldn't care less if we pay more tax. By the way, I have yet to see any of the tax deductions you say were given to the rich. All I see is a greater tax burden due to the alt. min. tax. I'm willing to pay my share of taxes and let those people who can't afford to own property alone.

I don't have a problem paying my fair share either. But I think with the cost of homes, etc... But I agree with HappyDad that the cut off is going to be a little higher than $250,000.

happydad
10-14-2005, 04:32 PM
Is there any action of any kind this administration could take that you would like?

Resign. Whoo

Toad
10-14-2005, 04:40 PM
Resign. Whoo


At least your honest, it's not what they do it's who they are you don't like. If it was a Dem. administration they would be walking on water. Oh brother Doh

happydad
10-14-2005, 05:19 PM
This was my only judgement on the deduction matter as it relates to policy:

"Now, do I think it's wrong? I'm not sure, but I bet it ends up to be around $500,000.00."

billuscher
10-14-2005, 10:56 PM
Don't you think that this will have a negative effect on the housing market.

The income tax is the fairest tax, If we need to raise revenue (and we do) we need to look at the income tax and that bizarre tax give away that Bush promoted.

Bobby35ny
10-15-2005, 03:38 AM
I agree with HappyDad, they cut it in half........500,000

-Bobby

Toad
10-15-2005, 07:12 AM
Don't you think that this will have a negative effect on the housing market.

The income tax is the fairest tax, If we need to raise revenue (and we do) we need to look at the income tax and that bizarre tax give away that Bush promoted.

I would be in favor of the flat tax based soley on income. It gets ride of all the loop holes, including mortgage deduction.

Tubby
10-15-2005, 09:00 AM
I would be in favor of the flat tax based soley on income. It gets ride of all the loop holes, including mortgage deduction.


I agree, but I don't think we will ever see a flat tax rate.

happydad
10-15-2005, 09:43 AM
I would be in favor of the flat tax based soley on income. It gets ride of all the loop holes, including mortgage deduction.

I agree with a VERY simplified tax code..even if that means removing deductions such as the mortgage deduction. But the amount and source of income may require a different flat amount to be applied. That of course, needs to be measured against NOT disincentivizing investing, saving, healthcare and education.

Toad
10-15-2005, 12:06 PM
I agree with a VERY simplified tax code..even if that means removing deductions such as the mortgage deduction. But the amount and source of income may require a different flat amount to be applied. That of course, needs to be measured against NOT disincentivizing investing, saving, healthcare and education.

Why overhaul the system just to put in new pet deductions? For individuals tax based on gross income alone with an increasing percentage rate. Business would be different because service business would benefit much more than manufacturing who have a high cost of goods sold.

happydad
10-15-2005, 01:58 PM
Why overhaul the system just to put in new pet deductions? For individuals tax based on gross income alone with an increasing percentage rate. Business would be different because service business would benefit much more than manufacturing who have a high cost of goods sold.

While I would hardly call investing, savings, healthcare and education "pet" anything, I was not referring to them as deductions. I was merely stating that any overhaul of the system should not discourage people, both wealthy and poor, from financially avoiding these crucial components that impact noth national and personal economies.

In other words, a tax overhaul should not discourage the wealthy from investing in business - that would hurt economic growth for the who country. Likewise, tax overhaul should encourage both individuals and society as a whole to invest in such things as education and healthcare - again because these things impact society as a whole.

Toad
10-15-2005, 02:46 PM
While I would hardly call investing, savings, healthcare and education "pet" anything, I was not referring to them as deductions. I was merely stating that any overhaul of the system should not discourage people, both wealthy and poor, from financially avoiding these crucial components that impact noth national and personal economies.

In other words, a tax overhaul should not discourage the wealthy from investing in business - that would hurt economic growth for the who country. Likewise, tax overhaul should encourage both individuals and society as a whole to invest in such things as education and healthcare - again because these things impact society as a whole.

I think you make a good example of why we will never have a flat tax. There will never be an agreement of what is an acceptable deduction and political interests will always try to slip in something. In the end, nothing will get changed from the current basic system.

happydad
10-15-2005, 03:20 PM
I think you make a good example of why we will never have a flat tax. There will never be an agreement of what is an acceptable deduction and political interests will always try to slip in something. In the end, nothing will get changed from the current basic system.

You keep using the word deduction. I am talking about tax incentives, that are based on individual investments, not reductions in taxes based on income.
This still allows for a flat tax - but rewards people that make investments in
healthcare (helps reduce the burden of government to subsidize the poor) retirement (helps lessen dependence on Social Security) and education (empoers people to improve their lot in life.) Are these political interests? I think not.

Toad
10-15-2005, 03:28 PM
You keep using the word deduction. I am talking about tax incentives, that are based on individual investments, not reductions in taxes based on income.

A rose by any other name...? Spending money in some fashion as to reduce your tax burden is a deduction. There are deductions above the line, below the line, adjustments and credits but all accomplish the same thing.